SPECIAL: Halloween's Ecosystem

Philip (00:00.99)
Primarch Studios this year in, well, this week in Detroit and Tampa. I don't even know what's going on. This.

Scott (00:05.789)
this year, this time, whenever you're listening, we're in Detroit and Tampa.

Philip (00:11.856)
Yes, here we are. It is the week of Halloween. is Hell Week as known in the haunted trashing industry. Some haunted houses are actually open every day, including the one I'm working at this season, Hush. And so we thought we would bring some Halloween flavor. We have a lot of Halloween flavor normally, but you know, it's Halloween. So give us this, give us this episode to just. Yes.

Scott (00:32.044)
This is our Halloween episode. mean, look, I even wore a Halloween shirt for those of you who watching it on video. This is, actually wore a Halloween shirt, which those of you who know me go, duh. But anyway, yeah.

Philip (00:43.006)
Yes, so Scott, know what? thought maybe we go a little, have a little fun. So fun.com sent over some research. They released this research about what costumes and decorations that their online center has been selling. And they kind of tabulated everything together. I thought this was fascinating. So what they said is that Ghostbusters costumes had surged 80%, Beetlejuice sales are up 105%.

Inside out eight times what they were last year with 22 new costumes, descendants up 230 % since adding Red and Chloe and Despicable Me has doubled sales since 2023. Also mentioning Deadpool versus Wolverine with those. So I was looking at this, they sent this over to me to look at for like a Halloween inclusion. And what I thought was interesting is if you'd kind of look on this, one,

Obviously it tracks almost in line with the media that has been put out to the general public. So, you know, there's the Ghostbusters, Frozen Empire, there's Beetlejuice Beetlejuice inside out, you know, there's these descendants. The Rise of Red was a big one this year, but it also tags with physical experiences that we have seen. So we have the Ghostbusters houses and both, you know, on both coasts. Of course we have the Beetlejuice Beetlejuice experience. There's several.

be able just experiences that were, some sanctioned and some not sanctioned, know, some real license and some not licensed, course, around the country. and then descendants, you know, Mickey's not so scary Halloween party did a new descendants dance area this year that we talked about. I haven't, I don't if I've seen the inside out experience except for it being part of the parade inside out as part of the parade at a magic kingdom. And then.

Of course, the statistical me, you every time you go into Universal, you have the minion land and mini land is still, you know, pieces of it are still open during the Halloween season, of course. So, and in Japan, minions have their own line of like spooky characters that you can actually do a meeting greet with the spooky versions of them and their Halloween costumes. So it's interesting to me because we've talked previously about Halloween being an ecosystem and how, you know,

Philip (03:05.458)
The reality is much more people will watch something or play a game, you than they will go to a theme park or a Halloween event, you know, cause it's just, cause the reality of where they're looking at, but it's just, again, this Disney model, but we're seeing it, you know, duplicated in other areas. And it's kind like one hand feeling the other, right? So you, you know, it's like, what is trending, what costumes people want to buy, right? Being directly correlated to what

physical live entertainment exists in the world, which then like reinforces, you know, interest in, those characters and going red dressing as them to some of these Halloween parties, especially the Disney parties, because you could dress as red and go to the descendants dance area. Right. so I don't know, it's just an interesting, really interesting how the data actually does bear it out quite explicitly. Like here are the trends and the trends directly relate to what you could go do in person.

Scott (04:00.78)
Well, and we also have said that film and video and television is losing its grasp as far as the leader when it comes to these kinds of trends. However, all of these are film and video based. I think what's unique though is I don't think it's quite the...

Philip (04:13.617)
Exactly.

Scott (04:20.188)
the duck's mic, the duck migration point where it's like the media is at the beginning and then everything follows suit. I think it's, it's much more of a give and take. I think it's much more of an ecosystem as you've described it, where one fuels the other fuels back and forth.

I also think it's interesting that since this is based on costuming, want to make this is a little bit anecdotal, but I want to share it as well. So last night, this is being recorded on Sunday the 27th of October. And last night, which was the Saturday night before Halloween, I was...

involved in a project which we'll talk about later, but I was involved in a project that was in Ybor City here in Tampa, which is the party street. I mean, it's the big old party street. It's like Bourbon Street. It's Tampa's version of Bourbon Street, all right? And since it was the Saturday before Halloween, everybody was showing up to the clubs in costume. And I think the interesting thing, a factor that I think, because we're talking about costumes, there is a factor that I think we have to include when it comes to this costume data. And that is, and you're gonna laugh at me when I say this,

But can it be sexy for women and is it comfortable for guys? Because guys don't want costumes that require gigantic things. They want to wear clothes. They want to wear clothes that they're comfortable in. And I will tell you, Beetlejuice was effing everywhere. I mean, it was, there was so much Beetlejuice because again,

Philip (05:37.406)
Mm-hmm.

Scott (05:41.974)
guys can throw on a striped jacket, a green wig, and life is good, you know. And when it comes to descendants, descendants can be as provocative as you want to make them. And I'm thinking this is obviously adult costuming. And Ghostbusters, same thing. Guys and gals can put on a coverall with a nameplate and get some sort of toy that they picked up, a Ghostbusters toy that they picked

up and they're good to go. So I think a lot of this has to do with comfort. I would guess that Inside Out and Despicable Me trends higher with younger guests. I would also guess that Deadpool and Wolverine also trend better with adults than with kids, although I really don't know that. This is kind of anecdotal. But it was just very interesting for me to walk down

the main party drag in Tampa and not see a whole lot of traditional costuming, but Beetlejuice, a go-go. And again, because of the release of the film, there's no question about that. And Ghostbusters, I think is just because of pure comfort. So I think if we're looking at this from a costuming standpoint, I think we have to take that into consideration, that it is what are people willing to wear?

Philip (06:39.517)
Yep.

Scott (06:58.39)
You know, we can come up with the, if they came up with.

a Leilu costume from Fifth Element. That's great, except only about eight people can wear it because they have the body for it. So this is one of those situations where it can be ramped up and ramped down for adults. And I will say, the adult costume market is just as vibrant as the children's market. And I think at times even more so, especially with the 20-somethings because they're all going out to party.

And if they're going out to party based on what I saw last night, I would say 75 % of the people who are going out to clubs, and these are clubs that have, you know, an hour to an hour and a half queue to just get into the club. And I would say roughly, I would say 70 to 75 % of the people who were there were in costume and were in an IP costume. And like I said,

Beetlejuice, Ghostbusters were just rave. mean, and there's also the cosplay thing of gender, gender swapping. So there was a lot of, there was a lot of female Beetlejuice as well, which was interesting.

Philip (08:11.921)
Yeah.

Philip (08:16.466)
What, well, it all ties back to, I think what we've talked about before, but just, I think the takeaway is for people listening, understanding that it's all part of an ecosystem, right? And that like coming to your attraction for Halloween is only one piece of their, you know, Halloween holiday experience as these families. And that don't underestimate how people do like to get into costume. They like to wear it at least more than once if they're going to purchase one and go somewhere and, you know, tapping into

You know, we talked about this before, but really, I think on a bonus episode, actually we talked about it, but the idea of like allowing guests to participate a little bit and using the costumes where you can. And that was the biggest thing I took away from Asia going to the haunts there was that, you know, all the theme parks and all the independent haunts, everyone allows costumes and people do show up in costume a lot. And like you said, I remember being in an ocean park in Hong Kong and there was a group of

guys all dresses, Ghostbusters, you know, and I was like, okay, you know, which is fun because they get to do it together and they, you know, get to take a picture. I think that's why they do it. Cause you all get to take a group picture and you know, you're in your costumes and it's more fun than just showing up in like a regular t-shirt or something, you know, which, which is I think what happens here in America. Most times we don't allow costumes. Yeah. So we just show up and it's kind of boring, but

Scott (09:34.285)
This is my costume. Yeah, that those kinds of shirts. Yeah.

Philip (09:39.046)
And speaking of what people will wear in sexy, I thought it was funny in Hong Kong, there was a trend. I noticed at multiple locations with young men dressing up as sexy maids. So they had like maid outfits on and, you know, posing around the haunt. And I was like, this is interesting.

Scott (09:55.256)
Yeah, it's, it's, it's very, yes, it is very unique. And it's funny because in the U S when you're doing family friendly events, cause I'm doing, you I'm doing several of those this year. when you're doing family friendly events, costuming and dressing up is just a thing. And parents with children, I think use their kids as an excuse to, dress up as well. And what I found specifically in the Midwest more than anywhere else is the trend that, those eye rolling tweens who don't really like to participate in anything.

will dress up in costume if they're going with their friends. Or if they're going with their friends or their families. it's a unique situation. I do understand the logistic challenges in doing costuming in the United States in more adult-themed, like Halloween Horror Nights or Hollow Scream or that sort of thing. But...

Philip (10:26.588)
Yep, exactly. Yep.

Scott (10:44.948)
Yeah, I just think, yes, I agree with you, Philip. I think the takeaway is to recognize that although the films themselves may not necessarily be the point of the driving force, the IP behind the films and the ecosystem that surrounds them, whether that is gaming, costuming, live experiences, et cetera, is it's it's what Disney started doing years and years ago. And it has become, I think, the the norm now in driving what is is popular during the Halloween season.

Philip (11:14.504)
Well, speaking of, I think we can talk about the Halloween season. Let's talk about some places we have visited this last few weeks and you just got back from Netherworld.

Scott (11:24.472)
That's right. So I was in Atlanta working on a Christmas event for Stone Mountain and I got the chance to go and visit my very dear friends Ben Armstrong and Billy Messina at Netherworld. whoa, it is, for those of you who have never experienced the Netherworld Haunt, it is one of the most grand haunted experiences I think I've ever been through.

And this is something that Ben has always been very, very passionate about, and that is to create a sense of grandeur in the haunts. I have a tendency to be minimalist, and Ben has a tendency to be, whoa, giant monsters and two and three stories tall. And one of the things that I wanted to, first of all, it's a great experience. Let me just start right there. It is a great experience. It's one gigantic haunt and one good size haunt, and then a midway in between, which has...

food, no alcohol, but food and beverage, games, a ton of additional photo ops, ton of additional photo ops, a casket ride and a really robust gift shop. So it's getting closer and closer to that theme park idea. Plus there are escape rooms which are open year round at Netherworld that are also open as part of the Halloween event. So it can be a full night of fun and experience. But...

The thing I wanted to share with the audiences here, because not only did I get a chance to experience the haunt, but I also got a chance, Ben gave me a tour of their whole backstage area and how robust that is. So there's really two takeaways that I want to share that I think will be beneficial for anybody who does anything Halloween or anything immersive. Number one, it is the approach that he takes.

to getting people, creating a linear pathway through his space. Now he doesn't have a concern about space. It's gigantic building that he owns or that the company owns. But it's interesting because in talking to Ben afterwards, I said, I love the fact that you've built such a massive and long haunted experience without using hardly any walls. Everything is created by prop placement, by giant scenic that stands in the way. And he says, yeah, if I've got a room, I'll wind you through it four or five times.

Philip (13:39.614)
Mm.

Scott (13:39.798)
which is true, you get to see these, and he has a passion for giant animations and they are amazing, because he'll either build them himself or have a team build them specifically for him, or he'll get something off the shelf and alter it so that it creates something that is uniquely his. it's...

It's you, see everything from all sides. and when you wind through the same room, also gives the actors an opportunity to startle you multiple times. So it's kind of like doubling your labor force. it's, it's really.

I could go back again and see things that I completely missed the first time. It's layer upon layer upon layer. And the thing that I'm most, I personally am most impressed about is not only are you visually impacted on this level, on the level of your eyes, but also the level of your feet and two stories above you. It's, it is truly one of the most incredible independent haunts that I've been through. Actually it rivals a lot of the, the.

sorry, surpasses a lot of the theme park haunts as well. The other thing that he does that I just love, and this is just my own personal vibe, he changes the surface that you walk on multiple, multiple times throughout the entire haunt. And sometimes it's squishy and sometimes it moves and sometimes it's like a bridge, a swinging bridge. I'm not giving away too many secrets, trust me, because there are far, far, far more...

Philip (14:49.235)
Mm-hmm.

Philip (14:57.15)
Mm.

Scott (15:13.186)
for you to discover on your own. if you happen to be, it's in the Stone Mountain area in Georgia, just outside of Atlanta. If you have the opportunity and you can still get tickets, they are open every day now through, I believe it's next weekend, but it's definitely through Halloween. It's every single night.

So it could not come with a higher recommendation from me. And then the other takeaway I think that's important is not only has he invested tons of time in the Haunt itself, but I also got a tour of not only his actor backstage area where they have all their costuming, makeup, the process and procedure of their staff is like clockwork.

It is just so incredibly organized. So if you're ever doing anything, whether it's a haunt or whether it's any sort of immersive experience that involves performers, make sure that you refine your process and keep trying to improve it. Because obviously Another World's been around for a while and they have refined it to the point where it is remarkably smooth. Their storage facilities are incredibly organized and accurate and detailed. so I think that...

That's the other takeaway I want everybody who listens to the show to think about is don't just invest all of your money in what the guests see. Invest your money and time and effort into what your staff sees because the more organized and put together and procedural you can be backstage, it supports your performers so that the guest view, in the guest view, they are able to do what they do without any challenges or concerns.

So thumbs up to Netherworld, both from a guest experience and from an operational experience. It was really sharp.

Philip (17:01.83)
I really think Netherworld has managed to kind of using those techniques differentiate itself quite, quite significantly, I think from, from other haunted attractions. and also it kind of, what I tell people that have never been and don't have any concept of it is it's, I, you know, there's a cause a lot of people that have only, obviously they're only experiences a theme park con for good reason, because the theme park cons have the largest capacity and they have the wise audience. We've talked about that before.

But I usually tell them it's like, it is a better version of Universal because it still has that cinematic quality because, you know, Ben's background is in cinema. He has a great cinematic eye. So the scenes are cinematic in nature. They do feel like movies and you have these giant creatures. You have the budget. I mean, it really is kind of just a better version of Universal because it's there's so much more time and investment in it, you know, per square foot than a universal.

attraction could hope to do.

Scott (18:01.292)
I agree. I agree. And the unique thing is it doesn't have a single intellectual property in it. It's all unique. It is all created specifically for them, by them, which once again goes to Ben's dark and demented creativity. He can create these characters that are whacked out and are often combinations of mythology and standard fear, things that people are afraid of, and then just he adds his own little quirkiness to it.

Philip (18:05.468)
Yep, exactly.

Scott (18:30.08)
to create things that are uniquely netherworld that you will never see anywhere else.

Philip (18:34.876)
Yeah, it's excellent. It's excellent. so I went to, I don't even know. I was in Canada and, and then Los Angeles and then I'm in, and now I'm in Detroit. So it was a, I kind of, when I woke up this morning, I actually had forgotten that I had done these things and I was like, yes, that's right. it's been a, it's been a time.

Scott (18:45.942)
Right, yeah.

Scott (18:54.87)
Yes, whatever. You were at a haunt that is very near and to my heart, and that's dark in Fort Edmonton.

Philip (19:00.954)
Yes, I was at dark. spent two days there with the team. and it's just, it's year seven for them. And it is, I think pretty astounding to me how the, how the event has fleshed out so much. cause I remember pretty early on, cause Scott had worked on some of the initial years with the event and it started off good. mean, they, they, did.

come out swinging, you the quality was always good at the mazes, but the footprint of the event was not as much for a lot of reasons. It's a historic property. You know, mean, Scott knows more than, I mean, Scott was there at the beginning, but you know, it's historic property. was difficult to secure the footprint as these things are with historic properties. And, but where we are now is they do have four haunted houses now and they have three kind of scare areas where they have actors that roam around. They have a hidden bar.

They have a food truck alley, kind of a space. They have a few regular bars and then they have kind of just eating ways and entertainment zones. So it is a fleshed out event. I would say like a fully fleshed out event. They're using, you know, a pretty large footprint and activating it as best they can. The Capitol theater there is also open.

for folks to warm up and to watch clips of old movies. there's, mean, there's a lot. I mean, for, I think for Edmonton, for the area, you know, this to me would feel like, you know, the regional park experience, you know, it's kind of, I think it sits at that level. And the new Haunt this year is a much more classic Haunt in my opinion. They are, you know, again, they're being smart about it. They're utilizing their assets. So they have a...

Scott (20:34.925)
Mm-hmm.

Philip (20:50.598)
a giant train, you know, like a real train kind of like what Knox has. you, you know, you it's in there as a prop and they have cars that they have old cars, old cable cars, but you know, old like train cars. So you can walk through the train cars and they've designed it in a way where it's a good design, you know, that doesn't need as many actors because they have multiple scare points throughout it. And they come from different angles. You have multiple elevations. You're going up and down.

you know, tight scenes, large scenes, it's all there. It's a, it's a well, good, well-rounded scary haunt. And I think that was kind of what they were missing in terms of their portfolio because Scott, as you know, as the other haunts were not. We're, know, our story base, but they're not necessarily as scary. know, they kind of have multiple levels. The different attractions hit. Well, the different trashes all feel very different because narratively they're very different, but they also have all different vibes. So you have like the.

3 AM, which is the, I think more of the aesthetic creepy. have the clowns, you know, you have, and then you have this one, which is scary. So I think they're all kind of hitting a different demographic, which is I think what an event like that needs to do to grow in interest. so I just think it's an act. I, it's always surprising to me. like, it's only your seven. I mean, the team has made a lot of progress. yeah, Scott, what do you think?

Scott (22:12.876)
Well, and I will say, so I will say that I can't speak to this year, but going back to the beginning.

all the things you're saying have been present since the beginning. They wanted to come out swinging. They wanted to, that's the whole reason they brought me in. You know, I spent quite a bit of time up there, not only learning about the space, because what they wanted to do originally was to utilize as much of the historic properties as possible, or even the, some of them are actual historic buildings that have been moved to the site. The fort of course is as accurate as it can be, but there are some actual buildings that have been recreated as well.

Philip (22:21.426)
Mm-hmm.

Scott (22:48.702)
And so they have continued to do that. And yes, I have kind of followed them to make sure I've been stalking them to make sure they're still doing, doing cool stuff, but they wanted to come out swinging. They wanted to come out right. And the team there is amazing to work with. are the thing that impresses me the most about that team is they are so guest centric. They want to make sure they really pay attention to what their guests want. And they really

deliver it. You also have to recognize, know, for those of you who are listening from warm climates, it is bitterly cold up there in October. And, you know, it's there, but there is something very exciting about all the getting all the guests to gather around a fire pit and make s'mores and talk about the scary things that have happened to them. And then, of course, you have some creepy character Wandra behind you. It's it's it's it's so plays into what I love to do, which is the taking actual locations and especially historic locations.

and finding ways to haunt them. So kudos to Dark. I'm so glad it's still continuing to grow, but I'm not at all surprised because it's such a lovely team.

Philip (23:56.402)
Yep. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to mention while you were talking, it reminded me is they have done an excellent job of curating the atmosphere and also providing like pockets. And so two, two things you're fighting against, right? Is one in a cold climate, that space almost works against them because it's outdoors, as you just mentioned. And then when it's really cold, you know, it's a, this is a big space you're walking. mean, it's all, like I said, like a think, like a regional park, like a regional theme park. So it's not a.

single building. you're walking a lot and they've done a good job of making like pockets where they can warm those pockets and then you have like stretches where you walk between. But what's fun is that the stretches are not bare, which you know, Universal could learn a thing or two honestly, because they've done a great job of even if it's just a walkway, like you're just walking from one way to the other, they've lit it, they've put up gobos and projections and the atmosphere.

I think anywhere you are in the event, the atmosphere is maintained. And that is incredibly difficult to do in a historic property, but also one that is so cold because outdoor lighting is difficult, especially in the cold. So I mean, there's a lot of things I think the guests show up and they just feel like it's a Halloween event, but nobody realizes the amount of work that it takes to maintain that atmosphere. Yeah.

Scott (25:16.536)
Sure, sure. Well, the next one we're gonna talk about, this is very unique for me because I don't usually get to perform in Halloween events anymore. But there is an event here in Tampa that is being used to, it's a benefit event.

Philip (25:20.67)
Thank

Scott (25:32.824)
for the Tampa Fringe Theater, and I won't get into the politics of it, but suffice to say that in Florida, a great deal of the government support was pulled because of fringe festivals and the governor being concerned that money was going to things that were risque or pushed the norm. Well, so we decided, no, sorry, I did not decide, I did not write this. But my friend Jessica Jacobs, who decided to write this wonderful,

improvised LARP called the All Hallows Eve Tea. And it is a four hour experience that is a four course meal. And everyone who buys a ticket, it's very limited ticketing, but everybody who buys a ticket is assigned a character or is allowed to pick a character that they are playing.

Some of them are very active and participatory in the story, and some are less, so guests can choose how much they want to play. But we did our first performance last night, and we will do our last performance tonight.

But the idea is it is about the signing of a treaty between the four factions of Creatures of the Night, which is the witches, the spirits, the vampires, and the monsters. And it is very dark humor. It is very tongue in cheek. It is very adult. I play Babesiosus Sanguis, which is the patriarch of all vampires. So I'm the progenitor of all vampire clans. throughout the course

the evening we discover that the treaty between all these factions has been destroyed and then the guests by the end of the by the end of the experience have to rewrite the treaty and we all have to sign it and then there's a big toast so but it is very improvisationally based at different key points throughout the night all of the guests have action cards where

Philip (27:20.254)
That's cool.

Scott (27:33.014)
and they are based specifically on their character. So as the evening progresses, they will open up their action item and they will be required to elevate the story in that regard. And what's really interesting is those of us who are playing the four leaders, the only actors involved are the four leaders of the factions. And then we have some volunteer servers who also get into the fun and play one of the other characters, a member of one of the other factions.

so, so that's really neat. but it is, it is the fundraiser for the Tampa fringe. And because of its, its low capacity, the ticket price is, is steep. It's, it's around a hundred dollars, but it includes a meal and is four hours long. So, and you get to play. Now it's not for everyone, but it is, it, I was incredibly impressed last night with the level to which, you know, we talked earlier about grownups wanting to dress up.

the level to which people took their characters to heart and really threw on the costuming, know, the whole witch faction. You could look at the four tables where all of the factions sat and you would know exactly which faction was which. It wasn't somebody just showing up in a t-shirt. People were showing up, you know, in full witch regalia.

my the the the the werewolf or the monster clan was hysterical because like you'd look over and you'd see all these ears and fangs and and then the vampires were all like the entire table was in black and red without being told so you know it it's a lovely opportunity for those people who want to be creative who want to play

And I can hardly wait to go back tonight because it was, as an actor, was just such a wonderful four hour improvisational challenge to live in that character for four hours. So it's, I...

Philip (29:23.398)
And to kind of coach people into getting along and to, mean, that's such an interesting, it's like.

Scott (29:28.86)
and to steer the story if we felt we needed to. And there were times that I would throw red herrings in. There were times that I would throw things in just to keep things, keep people on their toes. And I won't tell you what the outcome is. So we'll just go from that. But I think the takeaway is there are a lot of unique different kinds of Halloween events. Now, could you do a LARP like this across a giant theme park? I doubt it.

Philip (29:31.592)
Yep.

Scott (29:57.462)
but it might be an upcharge opportunity or it might be something that you can do in the afternoon before your event to expand the hours of your event. It might be something to generate additional revenue for your event. This is the first time I've ever really participated in a LARP of this level and I'm very impressed with what Jessica's done.

Philip (30:15.774)
Well, and it only takes, you know, it only takes four actors, but they're highly trained. But I mean, that could be, you know, a thing. That's the whole thing with the FanFest, right? Or the Comic-Con concept where when you invite your guests to bring the entertainment, then, you know, you really don't have to buy as much because the guests are bringing part of it with them.

Scott (30:36.502)
and they become the other actors. And the other thing that I want to say, the biggest takeaway from an operational standpoint is if you're going to do something like this, make sure you have quality food. The catering for this event is stellar and it's quality and it's unique. It's not, you know, go up to the, everything was hand served. It was served to the table. The only thing that was done in a buffet style was dessert.

So if people are going to pay what you need them to pay to make this profitable, you're going to have to make certain that the quality level is there based on the dollars.

So that's it. my gosh, we're out of time. Why are you in Detroit, Philip?

Philip (31:24.366)
I'm here at Hush. Yes. Well, you know what? We can talk about it in the bones episode.

Scott (31:25.598)
Okay, so how's hush going? Everything going well?

Scott (31:30.632)
Okay, well we'll do just that. So for those of you who we won't be talking to in the bonus episode, thank you once again for tuning in. We really appreciate you spending a half hour with us each week. And on behalf of Philip Hernandez and myself, Scott Swenson, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30, and we will see you next week. Happy Halloween.