Disney's Operational Magic: Key Insights from IAAPA's North America Summit 2025

Philip: From our studios in Los Angeles and Tampa, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30. I'm Philip. I'm joined by my co-host, Scott Swenson of Scott Swenson Creative Development. I've already started to go off the rails. My gosh. During Green Tagged, we look at the top theme park news from each week and discuss why it matters to you. And this week, we are talking about takeaways.

Scott: Squats, squats, reps, and weight, if you will. Thank you, Philip.

Philip: From IAAPA's North American Summit, which just happened at the Disneyland Resort this past weekend. It happened recently. Recently, recently it happened and I was there while it happened. So that's how we're gonna do it. Yeah, so I was there. I took copious notes and I tried to synthesize the information. And so I'm gonna explain what happened to Scott and then you all by extension. And then Scott can give his—

Scott: Recently. Yeah, it happened recently. Yes. And I was not.

Philip: —take, because he has so much experience, and I'm really just sitting there reading what people say.

Scott: You just called me old but that's okay. Right. Experience. It was much kinder. It's much kinder. I know.

Philip: No, I didn't. Okay. I called you experienced. That's... yeah. So, okay. I try and be kind. So there's— so, okay, just— so I only went to half of it. I'm sorry, y'all, I got— I had, like, stuff to do.

Scott: So here we go. "Philip attended, Philip attended, Philip..." and then we find out Philip attended half of it.

Philip: But the half I did attend was great.

Scott: And it's still— it's still 50% or 100% more than I attended. So there you go.

Philip: And you know what? I still made it to get my free bottle of wine. They were just giving whole bottles of wine out. I was like, Lordy. Yes, of course I had to get my free bottle of wine. So, well, we paid for it. So you know what I mean? It's like, you know, anyway, so the day I attended, I attended day two and day two is all about the Disneyland Resort. So we heard from executives at Disney discussing the Disneyland Resort and the various projects that have opened there.

Scott: That's why you went. Anyway, let's dive in.

Philip: And specifically we heard about Downtown Disney. We heard about Toontown and we heard about Tiana's Bayou Adventure. And then we heard from Massimiliano Freddi, who is the IAAPA Global Chair for the Event Committee. So we'll just go in order. But just so you know, I thought that Freddi's talk, even though it was only 20 or 30 minutes — I don't even know how — it was a time. It was the best. It was very, very good. And I'm excited. So hopefully we get all the way to that before we kick it into Unhinged. But the second best was the first one we're gonna start with, which is discussing Toontown. And it was given by the Vice President of Disneyland Resort, Chris. She was incredible. She was, I think, the epitome of what you want at an IAAPA event where she's the VP of Disneyland Resort. So she has the operational experience. She does this every day, and what she was presenting was not fluff. Like, it was not Disneyland marketing speak. It was "here are the real takeaways." And then she did Q&A and she handled it incredibly because you know what happened? I mean, you know how it is at these events, you know, the Q&A can get a little... you know, like, "Tell us about the ride capacity" or "Tell us about the specific model of projector that we used and the lens refresh rates," or those types of things. And she was great at being like, "I don't have the answer to your question, and even if I did, I wouldn't give it to you because it's sensitive."

Scott: Because it's proprietary, yeah. Well, it's so funny. In the training sessions that I'm putting together now, one of the things I discovered is there's three things that anybody who works for Disney is not allowed to say. And those are: "I don't know," "I don't have that information," and "Even if I did, I wouldn't tell you." Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect.

Philip: It's great. She was so good, but she gave us a lot of insights on the Toontown redesign area. And this has been open for a while. And, you know, I thought it was one of the best refreshes they've done. Hearing about it really underscored so many of the things that Scott talks about all the time. You just— but it's like, it was done in a way where even though Disneyland is my home park and I go every month, and I see these things, but then you hear it explained and you're like, they did this seamlessly in the way that even I didn't really notice. But now that she mentions it, I was like, my gosh. And I think that's what we all want. We want to be able to redesign spaces in a way that just feels better. And you know, you can't really sit there and say it's because this shrub has moved six inches to the left, but it just feels better. And it feels seamless. And I think that's what they did. But some of the things she talked about — the number one thing they talked about — was creature comforts and accessibility, and little things that I didn't really realize until she talked about them. They took out all the curbs because people trip on curbs or just issues, you know. They also created a dedicated parking zone for strollers and they encourage all of the families to park their strollers outside of the zone before they walk into the zone, and they put cast members there watching them. And I was thinking, I was like, we're basically designing like a mini city. And so what you're doing is, in order to make the city walkable, you have to have a parking structure. And if you think of strollers like cars, you're designing a parking structure with an attendant to park the strollers so that families can actually just walk around. And she stressed that — she's like, you need to do these things. She talked about tables and chairs. She's like, they're so, so important just to have a place to sit down. And she explained the reasoning behind it, which is something that I've never heard really anybody talk about so blatantly, but she's like, look, the thing is tables and chairs are important because it makes the ride experience better. And you're like, what? It's not a ride, it's a table. And she's like, but listen — she explained how when there is a table and chair and plenty of shaded space, that means that families that are hot and tired can rest and recharge so they feel refreshed before they stand in a line for 50 minutes with their screaming children. She's like, the thing is you have to reset people and let them have time to be able to sit down in a nice place. She's like, you don't want them eating their lunch on top of a trash can because that's just such a bad experience and they haven't sat down. And she's like, all these things are important. So they added more seating, they expanded those areas, reduced the curbs, moved the stroller parking. And then she talked about the need to have downtime, which is something that Scott talks about all the time — but more like she talked about how you can't just give it lip service. You need to actually put in noise padding in a way that doesn't break the land illusion, but you know that there are designed areas within Toontown that are specifically decompression zones, where they did create areas where you can decompress, which is very important. And they talked about adding extra sensibility training and upping the training of the cast in that area to deal with people that might have a sensitivity issue and be able to guide them to those areas and help them in that process. And I was like, this is all exactly what we talk about.

Scott: Yeah, it's interesting that when you've got somebody who has boots on the ground experience, who actually is in the park on a regular basis, or at least whose people are in the park on a regular basis — although it sounds like she's there too — you recognize that the line between creativity and operations is very blurry. And the more blurry, the better, quite honestly, because you have to make sure that you remain in the world that you're creating creatively. However, that world needs to be a comfortable one. That world needs to be one that people want to be in, not just because of the IP, but because of the actual physical experience. So, you know, it's one of those things that you have to design for customer satisfaction. That's not just the training programs that you do with the Human Resources Department. That is the way it is built, the way it is designed. And I will tell you — I know there are going to be people listening to me who are going to want to throw things at me when I say this — anybody who has ever even thought about doing anything as far as theme park design: play Roller Coaster Tycoon for a while. And I know that there are actually college courses that require it. But the thing about it is it's so well written in the fact — the programming is so well written in the fact — that if you don't have enough trash cans, if you don't have enough shade, if you don't have enough restrooms, or if you put your food locations too close to your high-impact rides, then your guests — yes, this is part of the game — literally vomit. So it's really interesting in the way that it's been put together. And it requires you to be very, very creative in the way that you integrate these creature comforts and these basic amenities that you have to have, especially with families with small children. And it was so funny because when I saw this in the notes, the first thing I thought was, you know, here, at least here in Florida... now, I don't know — I don't remember the one in California. I visited Toontown, but it's been several years now. But the one in Florida always felt like an afterthought. It always felt like it was kind of just tucked in there. It's like, let's bring back Mickey and the classic Disney characters — and always kind of felt like an afterthought. And I don't know whether that was true. Was that true in California too, Philip? Or was it?

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Philip: Yeah. And she did talk — she actually talked a little bit about the history — but yeah, I think they talked about how, you know, again, maybe less of an afterthought and more of a "we need a place where Mickey..." and they kind of just, like, you know, put Mickey's... it was meant to be like, you know, you would walk into the Toontown area, but it wasn't designed — you know, there's roads and curbs and it was really hot because so much of the Toontown stuff didn't have a lot of real trees. I mean, it was really... yeah, it was more like they designed — it was more like what you were saying. Like it was almost like Toontown 1.0, where it was like, you're walking into a Toon town. Well, like, you know, toons don't need to go to the bathroom. They don't need shade. They don't need... yeah. It was fascinating. And talking about the story, you know, she talked about that in ways that echo what you're saying, but then applied practically — which again, I didn't think about. But she talked about that they moved — they had this trend where they're moving from attraction-based costumes to land-based costumes. Because if you — and there's another thing, if I remember it — again, these are things where you hear them and you're like, this makes so much sense, but I didn't even notice. And that's their goal, you know. Because in the past Disneyland was like — even when I worked at Disney, you know, you had costumes based on the zone that you were in, as in like the ride. You know, this is your skipper outfit, or I was a cowboy. This is your cowboy outfit for the thing, okay. And now she's talking about how you have more just land costumes and they're designing the costumes in a way where the cast members can make their own. So they've designed all sorts of elements. They have the tops, the bottoms, the accessories, all this kind of stuff. And the cast members can just mix and match. And they're not telling them "you have to dress exactly like this." They're just giving them outfits that you would see people wear in Toontown, but they can choose and that way they can make it their own. She mentioned that's also important because, like with Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge, you know — she's like even regular cast members that are just in Toontown, they have to have a backstory and they have to have like a North Star guiding the backstory, which is that they don't live in Toontown. They are visiting. And why are you visiting Toontown? They need to be able to answer that, and then to be able to put together a costume on their own that matches that. And you're like, these simple things — I mean, that doesn't take a lot of time, but the simple alignment of like, "don't live here." Like don't ever tell a cast member that you live here, because only toons live here. This is Toontown and you're a human, so you're a human visiting Toontown and you've dressed up in this thing to visit Toontown. And why are you here? Tell us why you're here.

Scott: So it's interesting that you say this, and it's even translating into costuming, which is really cool because again, in research that I'm doing for another project, I'm looking at customer service in various parks and various companies and what their catchphrases or their mantras are. And Disney's currently is be you, be here, be part of the story. And what you just explained so embodies and practically implements that whole concept. You know, be you — giving the team member or the cast member the opportunity to create their own costume based on the parts and pieces. Be here — you are in Toontown. And be part of the story. But you're not a toon; you're visiting, and we need to know why. So all of that is so in line with that very simple mantra that when you read it or hear it, it sounds kind of, you know, vague and silly. But when you actually drill down a little bit more and see how it's being implemented, it's pretty impressive that they were able to create something that was so actionable. That's cool.

Philip: Yep. And see, that's exactly what I like about the IAAPA sessions — or this is what I think industry sessions should be like — because I'm an examples person, you know, and I need both. I need you to tell me the theory, the North Star, but I need you to give me an example to really make it make sense for me. And I think this is exactly what I would want from an industry session, which is: here's the example. Okay, so here's the thing. Great. That's great. But it's not just lip service. This is how it's actually implemented. You know, and we weren't allowed, obviously, to record anything or take pictures because it was a proprietary talk, but we got to see pictures of the different costume elements and the racks and kind of how the process works of letting them choose what they want. And I think that's important too, because you have to explain to the operators, this is how you can do it. And maybe they're not going to do it on the scale of Disney, but it allows the operators to think, okay, how could I implement this? How could I ask these simple questions? How could I make sure that every cast member is aligned in, like you said, be here? Where are they? Why are they in this safari zone? What are they doing? Yeah.

Scott: Mm-hmm.

Scott: Yep. Yeah. It's... I just love it when — cause I'm the same way. And that's the way I always like to teach sessions too. I like to give theory. I like to do the what, the why, and the how. Those are the three things that I always want to get into a session whenever I teach it. And it's the what are we doing, why are we doing it, what is the theory, and how are we implementing this. And when they align so perfectly... And Disney, in the past, they kind of got a little rocky there for a while. But in the past, they were the ones who pretty much set up the "here's what we say and here's how we make that real." I think sometimes they went through a phase where they had to kind of reverse engineer it for a while — where they actually did the "here's what we're going to do" and then had to figure out what the theory was as to why they were doing it — which is backwards and doesn't quite work. But this is a perfect example of how it sounds like they're back on track, which is great.

Philip: And the next thing that I thought was just really funny — because speaking of the operator and that kind of figuring-it-out type of thing, working backwards — sometimes, you have to work backwards, I think. So they talked about the interactive play areas, you know, and it's one of those things where, you know... I mean, it's just funny where you're like, they're making interactive play areas and they're like, well, we didn't know how the grass was going to go because — oh, it's grass. And it's funny because operators understand that hesitancy, right? Where you're like, you know, you kind of want everything to be flat and to be durable. But when you think about the way children play, that's really not how children play — it's not with flat, durable things. And she talked about those kinds of things multiple times, where she's like, you know, some of the most entertaining moments are just like the basic cardboard or the basic boxes — not cardboard, but the basic boxes we have here.

Scott: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, but it's the running joke of every parent on Christmas morning that whatever the largest present was, the thing that the kids play with the most is the box that it came in.

Philip: Yep. Yep. And, you know, she did talk about some logistical things where, you know — that's, you know, that they're like... some of the play structures they got, you know, were regular play structures, which were not intended for the volume that they do. So they're having to kind of work with that and think about how to fix that. And then they — you know, just funny things about how a lot of the operators in the room, they asked, like, well, aren't you concerned about liability by putting these play structures in the area? And it's just funny that that's what operators think about, right? We always are like, what about the liability? And we can't possibly have a play structure, because what if they fall off or whatever? And she didn't say this. She said that there wasn't an increase in any — there's been no increase. But afterwards, I was talking with people and we just thought it was funny that of course our first reaction to wanting to put a play area in a park is what if they hurt themselves? And then you're like, we forget that, like, children know how to play. It's adults that have forgotten how to play.

Scott: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well — and yeah, you know, I... without sounding once again like the old guy, I can remember when all playgrounds were blacktop and they didn't have... you know, they went from blacktop to mulch to that foam padding stuff. And you know what? There's an entire generation — there's multiple generations — that fell off of swing sets onto blacktop and we survived. You know, it's fine.

Philip: Yeah.

Scott: Yeah. But again, I think that all too often — that's why I like to say blurring the line between operations and creativity — because all too often the creative side is "what can we do and here's why we should do it." And the operational side is, "well, here's what we can't do." And there is a balance. I agree. You can't be completely, you know, 30,000 feet all the time. You can't be blue sky all the time. But at the same time, it should come back to the creative and the answer should not be "well, we can't do that." The answer is, if we do that — or when we do that — here's what we have to make sure we've thought about. Because all too often operators will say, "what about liability?" and they're just waiting for someone to say, yes, that's right. It's too dangerous. We won't do it. So my favorite quote from one of my operator friends back at Busch Gardens was the head of our safety department. And he said, well, the safest way to run a park is never open it. So you'll never have a single injury. You'll never have a single guest complaint. You also won't make a dime. It's always being realistic and weighing—

Philip: Yep. Yep.

Scott: —the reality and the fantasy that you're trying to create and make it a fun place. I mean, that's ultimately the goal. It's got to be a fun place.

Philip: Yes. Well, okay. We just— you just said something that was the last point I thought of, which she, again, captured beautifully. I was a fan. I could listen to her all day, but she talked about that balance, you know, of the items. And basically she was talking about how, at this point, we all know — we all should know — that you can make more money on food if it's more themed, right? So you plus up your food, you make it part of the experience, you can make more money on it — food and drink, merchandise, that's all true. But she talked about the balance of like, look, this is an area for families and you have young families that need something affordable. And so she's like, yeah, exactly. And so she's like, you have this tension basically which exists where, like, you know, people wanna make money on F&B, but also this is an area specifically for, like—

Scott: Affordable and chicken fingers. That's it.

Philip: —the young market affordability, and that's important. And so she talked about making a good, better, best approach to the food and beverage in Toontown specifically, which is like, okay, there's the good option, which is for just affordability — like you said, the chicken fingers, the basic things — and then there's plus and then there's plus-plus. And so that allows it where if you just get something for your kids, fine. And if the people who don't have kids or someone who wants to spend more on F&B, there's that higher option for them where they make a better margin that is more themed. But there has to be an affordable option for the families just to have food.

Scott: If the affordable option is not there, it means they make zero sales. So they make even less. So they might as well capture what they can and make certain, again, that the overall guest experience is a positive one. That's the ultimate goal.

Philip: Yep. Yep.

Philip: Yup. Yup. Exactly. So, I want to move on. The only other thing I thought was interesting is that she talked about, like you said, the layout a little bit — where the merch shop, you know, it's a classic Disney trope where the merch shop is the exit of the ride. But she talked about how that, in many ways, is almost a detriment for this one because if the ride goes down, then that means that while it's down, you lose merch sales and also that, you know, Runaway Railway is 1600 an hour, and just the outflow of that is almost too much for the store because the store isn't that big, and so it can get cramped in that area. And also, it being there means, you know, it's kind of hidden because it's the exit to the ride — so it's kind of... it's kind of— so I thought that was an interesting takeaway too, just thinking about, yes, you are forcing people to walk through it so you get foot traffic, but if the space isn't big enough for the foot traffic or if the exit is in a hidden place — because it's an exit and it's hidden by design, naturally — then if the ride goes down, you're losing that foot traffic entirely and no one is going to the store.

Scott: It's interesting because that's one of the things that they did pretty well, just from my experience in looking at Warner Brothers World on Yas Island. One of the things they did well there is you still exit through the gift shop. However, the gift shop has two other entry points. So it makes it so that if you have a large exit flow all coming out at the same time, you've got plenty of room. They don't have to cram through one single exit point, number one. And number two, you have an entrance and an exit even if the ride's not working. So even for those people who aren't going on Batman, you're still able to go into the shop and buy all the cool stuff. It's once again that balance of practicality and guest experience and fantasy. It's all got to come together.

Philip: Yeah. Okay. The next talk was a deep dive into Tiana's Bayou Adventure. I did not find this talk particularly useful, just because I think that most of what it was, was just recapping information that you would already know if you, you know, watched the doc or any of the other information out there. It was basically like more of a press talk. So I don't really want to talk about it too much. The only things that were interesting is they talked about their North Star, which was: one, a celebration of Tiana; two, authentically New Orleans; and three, fun and joyful for everyone. That's also pretty generic though. I think they said some things that are interesting — I'm just not sure how realistic they are for everybody in the room. I mean, they talked extensively about the deep-dive research that they did in New Orleans. So they had a research team. They went there; she talked about how you can never go wrong telling the story when you go to the place. You know, and they spent time with the families. I mean, they spent a lot of time with a family in a restaurant. They were trying to capture the vibe of that restaurant, interviewing all these people, going on site, going to... I mean, the Imagineers really did spend the time doing that deep-dive research. I'm not sure — really, I mean, this is one of the things where I was like, well, I don't know of many other attractions besides Disney or Universal that have the budget to employ an entire research team and send them out to spend X amount of months doing on-location reporting.

Scott: And Walt himself was notorious for this. He would send animators to the Middle East to draw camels for two months. It was one of those situations where... research is important and finding a way to immerse yourself in that and understanding it not just from what you see but also from what you hear, from what you smell, from the story. That's all really important, but it can be done on multiple different levels. You don't have to go and live in New Orleans for three months in order to understand what New Orleans is all about. You do a quick shot to New Orleans, you do a bunch of research. I mean, in pretty much every major metropolitan area, if you want to learn about the food from any place in the world, you can probably do it in your own city. So, you know, I think that it is important to do that kind of research. I'm not certain that it's absolutely essential that you have to be so immersed in the culture, especially if your budget can't afford it. So don't ignore the concept, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess is my point. Just because you are on a more controlled budget, don't say, well, we just don't have the budget for research. You have the budget for research, but it just has to be focused — right-sized to your budgetary restrictions. That's the important thing there.

Philip: Like exactly what you said. I think I would have preferred a talk that focused on what you said instead of like, "this is what we did." Because it felt very, you know, "look at how great we are," Disney PR type of thing. I'm like...

Scott: Well, and anytime you've got a presenter that focuses on, "here's what we did," and especially if they are from Disney — I'm sorry, I'm gonna call people out and I don't normally do this — if they're from Disney, Universal, or Meow Wolf, they will always focus on, "here's what we did." And everybody sitting there — three quarters of the people sitting there are either going, well, one quarter's going, "Oh, that's the coolest thing, I wish we could do that," and the other three quarters are going, "That's lovely, but that doesn't help us at all."

Philip: Exactly.

Philip: Exactly. Exactly. So I think what you said was more in line with my takeaways. I'm like, yes, we get it. Research is important. But how do we do that ourselves? And it is important to do it. How do we scale it? And the next talk was about the Downtown Disney transformation. What I thought was interesting is they talked about how they were going for a mid-century motif and open gathering spaces. We've heard a lot of this before because what they did is they kind of re— they made it like a gathering space in the middle of new restaurants or whatnot. So again, this is another one where we've heard most of this before because everyone's been talking about it. What I thought was hilarious was almost very similar to what they talked about with Toontown, where basically the head architect was talking about how, you know, we wanted it to be rolling hills, not flat. So basically his biggest challenge was just getting people to agree to let them make—

Scott: It's a verbal press release.

Philip: —the grassy area not flat. And that was the biggest challenge of the entire project. And it was because, again, back to that thing where it's like, people are like, if it's not flat, everyone's gonna trip and fall and there's gonna be lawsuits and this is a whole mess. And so he finally convinced them to do it. And what happens? Oh, everyone loves it, because they just sit on the grass. And it's one of those things where you're like, you know, kids actually know how to play on grass. You know, they're—

Scott: And grownups know how to sit on it. Grownups know to sit on grass, you know, especially in California with the weather there. Go to any beach or any recreational area and you will find people sitting on rolling hills. Yeah.

Philip: Yeah, exactly.

Philip: Yep. Yep. Yep.

Scott: We can't overthink or over-litigate things.

Philip: Yeah, I mean, you get the tendency — I thought that was, to me, the biggest takeaway, which is like, you know, sometimes if you are trying to create this environment... I mean, people have done this. Look at all the parks and green spaces people go to. I mean, look at all the green spaces. And so you're just kind of like, OK, well, if they can operate in those parks, fine. Maybe there's a way for them to also operate in this area where we just make this one area a little bit of rolling hills and it's going to be OK.

Philip: And, you know, they also talked about how this was the first time they've made common seating areas in Downtown Disney. I guess in the past, because of, you know, unions and blah blah — like all this nonsense — basically each restaurant had a seating area that it was in charge of. But that's very inefficient — wildly inefficient. And so the second big push was: what if we had an area that was just common? These things are just funny to me because they're so true. Because every operator has faced the same problem. But then if you think about it, every time you're in an airport or anywhere, there are so many places that have food courts with common areas. But it is a problem.

Scott: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because it's almost like they started listening to the YouTube Disney hacks, which would say, this restaurant is always really busy at lunch. However, go across the pathway to the Plaza, which is only open for breakfast and character dining, and their patio is completely empty. So just go over and sit there. Well, no, they've just made it so that the different restaurants, when they're being used, can be moved to different places. So, I don't know, makes sense to me.

Scott: Hey, you know what, Philip? We're out of time.

Philip: I know, we're out of time.

Scott: That was great. Thank you so much for sharing that. That was really cool. I feel like I was there. And hopefully all of you guys do too when you're listening. That's one of those things. So, yeah.

Philip: We didn't — I didn't get to the one I thought was the most interesting, but we're just gonna have to do that in our Patreon.

Scott: Yeah, yeah, we'll move that on to Unhinged. Sorry guys, but hey, you can join us too! You can subscribe via Patreon and find us in Green Tagged Unhinged. It'll be fun, and hopefully we'll see some of you there. But if we don't, we'll see you next week, right here on Green Tagged Theme Park in 30.